Humanity Working
Humanity Working is a podcast focused on how new technology such as AI is changing the experience of work, and how humans can thrive in this new world.
Each episode we explore what is changing, how it is affecting the way work gets done, and the impact it has on the people doing work - with a particular focus on those who have a creative aspect to their work.
The podcast is hosted by Paul Slater - Principal AI Technologist at Adobe Systems, often alongside Matt Neal - Innovation Leader at BeOne Medicines. We frequently feature authors, business leaders and top tier academics.
Join us as we navigate the ever-changing landscape of work.
Humanity Working
The Power of Groops with Bobbi Wegner, Psy.D.
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Bobbi Wegner Psy.D. is a Clinical Psychologist who teaches Industrial and Organizational Psychology at Harvard University. She is also the founder and CEO of Groops - a Group Connection platform used by organizations looking to improve the effectiveness of groups by improving communication and inclusion, strengthening relationships and enhancing trust.
Also check out Dr. Wegner's TedX Talk: Feminist Boys are our Future Men: Changing the Culture of Sexual Violence from a Very Early Age - Clinical psychologist and Harvard Lecturer, Bobbi Wegner, Psy.D., explores the role our brain plays in unconsciously gendertyping women and how that feeds a culture of sexual violence and inequity. She offers 3 powerful pieces of practical advice on how to talk to children about this, changing the way men and women see each other from a very early age.
To find out more about Dr. Wegner, visit www.drbobbiwegner.com, and to learn more about Groops, visit www.joingroops.com.
Humanity Working is a podcast focused on helping individuals, teams and organizations be ready for the future of work by maximizing their human potential.
For more information, and access to our weekly newsletter, visit us at humanityworking.net.
Employees want more feedback, and leaders are not giving it to them because they don't know how to deliver difficult information, which is creating more disconnect and it's not helping the company and the team grow. So we're avoiding this stuff because we don't know how to do it, and because we're well-intentioned caring people who don't actually want to hurt people. But to have a strong group, you have to be able to tolerate the discomfort. You have to be taught the skills, and the leader has to teach the group it's okay, this is how we handle it, and we're going to survive it.
SPEAKER_02Hey everyone, Paul here. I recently got a chance to sit down with Dr. Bobby Wagner. Now, Dr. Wagner is a clinical psychologist who teaches industrial and organizational psychology at Harvard University. She's also the founder and CEO of Groups, a group connection platform used by organizations looking to improve the effectiveness of groups by improving communication and inclusion, strengthening relationships, and enhancing trust. This is one of the most fascinating discussions I've had on this Way Too Busy podcast. I learned so much about how individual and team dynamics intersect and how all of this is changing as we try to make the hybrid and remote work environments work well. I hope you enjoy this chat as much as I did. So hey Bobby, it's great to chat with you today.
SPEAKER_01Hey Paul, thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here.
SPEAKER_02When we do these these guest episodes, they just love hearing the origin story of our guests. I think it really kind of helps put things into perspective for people. So uh so what's yours? What got you into psychology in the first place?
SPEAKER_01So psychology. So I I've had I've been on this sort of winding path since uh college or before. Um I, you know, in college I went to Trinity College in Connecticut and I ended up majoring in psychology, but I think my journey journey started a lot earlier. So I had this awesome professor named Dr. Lee, and he taught a class called clinical health psychology, and it was really about preventative wellness and how we can pay attention to how we think and um relationships and these other parts of our life, and really kind of taught me how this impacts how we feel. And um, and it part of health psychology is also working with medical populations. So, you know, things where really bad things have happened to people, you can't change sort of physical outcomes, but you can change the way you're thinking and breathing and connecting and all the parts of your life that you have control over. So for me, I'm the youngest of five kids, grew up outside Boston, and my oldest sister was born with um severe developmental disabilities, was a huge part of my life. And so, sort of the interplay between physical health and wellness, and um, you know, Amy was a complete blessing on my family, but you know, there was not without impact too, you know, family dynamics change when there was someone who has a lot of needs and things. And then when I was in college, my dad got this kind of random um diagnosis and ended up passing away. So from there, I was just very interested at the intersection between um kind of physical health, preventative wellness, psychology functioning. I went on to graduated college and went to Memorial Silent Kettering Cancer Center in New York and did clinical trials research there for a couple of years and then went back and got my doctorate in uh clinical psychology with a specialization in health psychology. And so that's really where it began for me. And then from there I've done different things. But at the end of the day, you know, I really believe in the power of relationships and connecting with people and kind of taking care of what we can care for in our lives and then trying to let the rest go. So that's the abbreviated version, I guess.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's uh that's a fascinating part. And I think it's in its own right, that journey. But um, now you're at a point where you you teach at Harvard on industrial organizational psychology. Now, I gotta be honest, like when I heard that term, I sort of kind of knew what it meant. Um, but I'd love to get a deeper understanding from your perspective as to what it is and how does it differ from the clinical psychology that most of us would be familiar with.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, so really what IOPs is is a scientific study of human behavior in organizations or in the workplace. And so it's not super different from my perspective. From I was a, you know, had a private practice for 14 years. I started doing more IOPsyche stuff by happenstance, getting sort of working with leaders and CEOs on an individual basis, and then eventually working um with companies and teams. And really, my clinical psych training really, really informs my IOSYCE training. And in fact, um, you know, to get an IOSEC degree, it's generally like a two-year program. But clinical psychologists, it's usually four to six years. So you have a really deep understanding of human behavior. And so I kind of took those skills to work, working with teams and organizations and leaders. Um, but really the the short answer is it's a study of human behavior and organizations, how people work together, what motivations um what people have, how they work in communities, how structure impacts how people feel, things like that.
SPEAKER_02So in that context, are you predominantly working with individuals themselves? Are you working with groups of people? Are you working with leaders? Are you working with the people inside the organization, or is it all of the above?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's all of the above, and it depends on what role you're sitting in. So for me personally, I'm working with groups and teams and I'm working with leaders. So I do a lot of work with leadership groups, I do groups across uh scale, across an organization, and then I also do one-on-one coaching. And but for me, a lot of the coaching is not focused on like emotional wellness. It's really focused on, you know, what's getting in the way, what are barriers to showing up at work, how can we um, you know, understand your strengths more and how the group or the organization can really play into those strengths, how the interdynamics between people and organizations and teams, really stepping back, noticing, naming them, and then helping people understand how to capitalize them, capitalize on them in a way that's like productive. And what we know is that when people uh work well together or in good social relationships at work, they're more productive, more efficient, they feel better, and they stay longer. So it benefits organizations to care about relationships at work because it impacts both the bottom line and just generally how people how long people stay and how they feel about the organization as a whole.
SPEAKER_02That really is very interesting. And I know that that has led now uh to you forming a company yourself called Groups. Um, I'd love you to tell me a little bit about groups. Uh I guess you should spell it too, because it's spelled a little differently. Sure. Um, but uh but tell me a little bit about it. And really, I think the most interesting thing is is what led you to do that? What led you to actually say, hey, I want to I want to form a company that is gonna really help people in the way that you've just been describing.
SPEAKER_01Great. Yeah, so groups is at the heart of it, a group connection platform. And so what we do is we basically bring um experts and group psychology to the workplace. So right now is a particularly rough time for organizations and for people, right? So people are feeling high rates of disconnection, eight and ten people feel lonely or isolated at work. People are leaving the workplace and looking for new jobs at a higher rate than kind of in any time in the past, and generally feeling dissatisfied. And it's costing companies a ton of money, and people aren't feeling good about it. So, read, you know, uh in the backdrop, I was teaching at Harvard in IO psychology, teaching motivation, which is what drives human behavior. I actually just had it this morning, and then groups and culture, how to build groups across scale to improve culture. And so what I do in those classes is really teach corporate leaders. They're both really big classes. Motivation is 250 people, and groups and culture is 125. Actually, it's this semester is 166, but it's teaching corporate leaders from all over the globe who are seeing this problem and coming to class trying to learn clinical psych type skills to use to help build better relationships at work, both on an individual basis and a group basis. So, you know, I have all these clinicians on my teaching team, 10 people who are therapists, IO psychologist type people, teaching these corporate leaders how to do counseling type stuff, not to do therapy, but because these are good foundational skills and building relationships. So as we're going through this, and then COVID's happening and we're seeing disconnection, and you know, I'm getting asked to do more consulting and whatnot. You know, we really said, we can actually do this for companies. Why are we teaching the HR people and the CEOs and the leaders of these organizations who they're not trained in psychology? They don't have the time to actually do this in an ongoing way, and it's too expensive to hire out, to either hire an in-house IO psychologist or like bring a consultancy in who's only going to do a piece of work. So we said, why don't we bring experts in psychology to the office to make available two teams to do ongoing work, just like you would do almost like a course of family therapy. This is not therapy at all, but it's like, how do you bring someone in to help deepen connection, learn how to build better relationships at work, and then kind of stick with the team and the organization over the course of time. So that's really where groups came from. It's uh an activation of the content we're already teaching. And then I have the ability to kind of bring people in that I, you know, just um that I already are in in parts of my life, my professional life, teach them and then have them go run groups at companies.
SPEAKER_02So, Bobby, one of the things I think I'm curious about there is the is the disconnection point that you made. Um so I'm guessing, and we'll get into this, I'm guessing COVID made that situation a lot worse. But were we already in a situation prior to that where uh the level of disconnection was was growing or not?
SPEAKER_01I would say yes and no. So I think on one hand, you know, we talk a lot about connection and engagement and the great resignation and quiet quitting. Those are all like organizational type concepts. What we're also talking about before COVID, which is still a thing, is increasing rates of uh mental health issues and the impact of the mental health crisis that was really only getting worse, right? So people were feeling fundamentally disconnected from themselves and from other people, you know, maybe not feeling as connected to a larger purpose. Um, that was already brewing in the backdrop. And I think showing up to the office before COVID, it was able to mask some of that because we had these little points of interaction, you know, at the water cooler, so to speak, or, you know, kind of chit-chat in person that that is valuable. We're hardwired for safety and belonging and for connection. So those moments of interaction matter. But I still don't think those are quite deep enough for what we actually need as human beings. You know, the APA, the American Psychological Association, came up with a study last year that said we all crave kind of deeper interaction with strangers than we're actually getting. You know, so if I were to see someone, I would say, How are you? They would politely say, I'm fine, how are you? and would move on. But most of us are dissatisfied with those types of interaction and we want to have more depth to the relationships that we have, but like the environment isn't really set up to like have that not be awkward or weird, you know. And then when COVID hit, we lost those kind of um small points of interaction, and now we're just completely disconnected, hiding out behind our computers, wondering, like, what are we doing here?
SPEAKER_02So that is fascinating. So if I'm hearing you right, I think what you're expressing is that the way in which our work environments were set up, the way in which our culture is basically, um, was not meeting the needs that people had already prior to COVID. And then COVID just basically ex exacerbated all of that. Um, I mentioned culture there. Is there a um other corporate cultures where you've seen where you've seen those deeper connections? Are there countries whereby people tend to form those deeper connections better than they do in the United States? Have you seen any of that that is an indication where you know other companies or or other cultures have this more figured out than we do?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, this is for sure. Not all company cultures are created equal by a long shot, right? So when you think about what is a culture, what is a group? A group by definition is three or more people coming together to work on a shared goal. That is a company, that is a group, right? A culture is a set of living, breathing relationships of people coming together to intersect and work on a shared goal. So, you know, the group and culture by definition is shaped by the individuals that like bring life to this new entity. And so, but you know, this is a human living, breathing thing that needs to be kind of cultivated. It just doesn't is like people just don't have great cultures. They're caring for their relationships, much like we need to care for our marriages and cultivate relationships with our children and our friends. Work relationships and group work groups are very much the same, but we just don't think of them that way. So um there are plenty of um there, there's just a variety of how people do this. Um, so one, and if we want to get into kind of like the cultural comparison, Denmark, for example, has been voted like the happiest country in in the world, I think for I don't know, I don't know how many years and running, but like a long, a long time. And I actually know the author of um uh who wrote the Danish Way of Parenting, and she does a lot of cross-cultural uh comparison, under like trying to understand why they're raising happier, healthier kids than Americans. And part of it is in America, we're a very individualistic society, right? We kind of like it's like I need to succeed at all costs, I need to win. And in Danish culture, for example, they have the concept of hookah, which is like park everything that is individual, individually focused. So it doesn't mean you always have to be best friends with everybody, but they have moments in time when you're gonna put the group and the we ahead of the me. So, for example, if you go to a holiday, you could be fighting with your brother or sister or mother or whatever, but you're kind of there's a social contract that we're gonna park that at the door. And I'm not gonna say anything that would be particularly divisive. You know, we're gonna create an environment that is focused on the collective, whether it's singing songs or creating an ambiance, whatever it is, but the focus is the group for that time being. And I think companies, to draw a parallel, need to be more thoughtful about how do you create that type of approach in organizations, um, especially in a hybrid um or virtual world.
SPEAKER_02That I have to say is utterly fascinating. And it kind of relates a little bit back to the early days of our company of Billion Minds. Um, prior to forming Billion Minds, one of the things that I was uh struck with was that I would, in my previous role that I was in, have to travel to a whole bunch of of different cultures. And there was one uh in particular where um I was I went to visit the the Danish office of uh of Microsoft. And and the uh if any of them are listening to this, they'll probably uh get a kick out of this. But the the one thing that uh uh struck us uh before even going, before even arriving was uh just the sheer effectiveness of that office, right? Um so we were thinking about it purely in terms of the great business results that the Danish office was was driving and going there to to try to a certain extent to figure out why or how, right? Um and and then when I arrived, um on the first day that I arrived, I popped into the office at around about 5 p.m. to find nobody there. And so and I was like, that's interesting. So here we've got this incredibly you know productive, effective office that at five o'clock that at five o'clock didn't have anybody in. Now, this is prior to COVID and it wasn't a whole hybrid work story or anything like that. It was simply that the focus um that uh uh of that office was to do really, really great work in a uh in that office setting, and then come five o'clock, they'd be generally getting on their bicycles and getting out of there. And I was really struck by the difference between that and the environment that I uh that I had in uh in the US office and in some other uh some other European offices as well. So it wasn't ex it wasn't a European thing versus an American thing or whatever. It was just a a different way in which they structured and almost like compartmentalized the different uh the different aspects of their lives. And your story about the the putting the we in front ahead of the me is something that I in practice noticed inside uh inside those uh um those groups as well. So it is absolutely fascinating and just a reminder that we can if if we're intentional about it, we can really learn some things from the way in which other uh cultures approach these things. And it's not like the way we've always done it is not necessarily an indication of the way in which we should, particularly given that so much in terms of the way we work and how we work and how technology is as interfaced with the way we work has changed so dramatically. It would be rational and normal to re-evaluate the way we work to accommodate that. So I d I think it's a terrific story.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, on the heels of that too. It's like you you kind of talk about the like work-life balance or integration or whatever word you want to use, but the compartmentalization. But another piece of this is when you actually lean into the teams and building strong relationships in the teams, teams are more productive because their communication's faster, it's more intuitive, there's more trust, you know. So things are just happen more quickly and you can be more flexible when bad things happen because there's a there's a communication that happens very intuitively and things are expedited. So, so that team very much, I don't know that team that you're talking about specifically, but like very much could have actually been working faster and more productively than some of the other cultures that you're naming, and therefore they're leaving earlier because it's like they have more time.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, absolutely observe that. The Way Too Busy podcast is brought to you by Billion Minds. Working out of the office brings employees all kinds of freedoms, but it can be really difficult to do well and stay engaged every day. Billion Minds has spent years studying the day-to-day habits of people who do great work in unstructured, ambiguous environments, and they've used it to develop a revolutionary platform that embeds key work from anywhere skills into employees in just ten minutes a day. If you want to help your employees become remote work masters while generating better business results for your organization, visit billionminds.com today or contact us at infobillionminds.com. Billionminds, helping everyone do great work from anywhere.
SPEAKER_02So one of the challenges that we've seen with remote work models in particular, and we'll get into more hybrid in a moment here, but with remote work models in particular is the nature of the relationships in the workplace. Um and so what we've seen in terms of um folks that are working with billion mines and what they're reporting to us is that the relationships have, if you like, become a little bit more shallow and transactional in nature. But I'm curious as to whether you've seen something similar to that. And fundamentally, what do you think is going on here as we're doing something fairly simple, which is just replacing a set of physical interactions with a set of virtual interactions? Do you agree that these relationships have become more shallow in nature? And if they have, why?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, that's a very uh that's a subtlety, but a very important one. So within step out of the virtual office or the office and jump into group therapy land. So as a group therapist or a psychologist, we go into all groups, and there's two things that are that are happening almost at all times. There's process, there's content, and there's process. Content is the words that are coming out of my mouth. Today we have to accomplish these three things. Um, this is how we're gonna do it, this is what we know about it, and let's go into solution mode. Process is all the stuff that uh is felt in a room, but not often talked about. So am I like rolling my eyes when you speak? Is you know, Matt not speaking, and it's just the two of us, is um, is he upset? Is like, am I 30 minutes late to this interview and now you're kind of frustrated with me? All these things that are part of every single dynamic that we don't talk about, we definitely don't talk about at work, and we definitely don't talk about in any kind of remote situation. We log on, we get our job done, and we move on. Right. And then so when we're we're in content too much, you're left feeling disconnected, um, shallow exchanges, very Transactional in nature solution focused. When we're in process too much, it can feel like what are we doing here? This is too emotional and kind of like spilling out everywhere. So in each interaction, there kind of has to be a balance of both, especially in the workplace. And since we've moved to a virtual or remote environment, we've lost a lot of the process side that can be just inherent or intuitive when you're sitting in a group with someone and you can like pick up on it. And you can also balance it with like the chit chat, which we don't really have in the virtual world. So, so with groups, company groups, when we go to um, and companies just in general are not used to doing this. So when we show up to lead groups or a series of workshops with people, I have a gigantic slide that says process versus content. You all are used to content. This is going to be uncomfortable because we're going to process. We got to counterbalance this right now. And so, like, let's talk about the roles and the dynamics and the feelings that are all in the room with us that we most often don't talk about. But when we can talk about it in a way that feels like honest, authentic, connecting, um, it can actually be connecting and helps build relationships, even when it's difficult stuff. So that's really our job as group guides to go in, bring some of this stuff to the surface, create guardrails so it's not completely awkward for an organization, but bring it to the surface so you can have more authentic exchanges and help each other build empathy and deepen connection across teams.
SPEAKER_02So, Bobby, I think one of the things that fascinates me about that is that you're getting into an area or a dynamic that that many of the people that you're talking to, at least initially, are going to be kind of deeply unfamiliar with what it is that you're even talking about. And then secondly, what you're asking to do to your point is something that um will by definition feel uncomfortable. And so anytime anybody is, you know, we think of our lens of this as skills development, right? Anytime that you're like starting to develop a skill in people that it that hasn't, that isn't there, right? That uh that and there isn't like the thread to pull upon, and there isn't even the obvious benefit, they can't even see initially the obvious benefit that they're gonna get out of it, it tends to lead often cases to sort of walls to be put up, or I don't think this is worth my time, and it's and what you're kind of asking me to do is something that I don't that I don't do. So where am I gonna get the time to do it? Why should I care about it? Um, you know, all those kind of things. Do you see that? Do you find that you that that you meet resistance? And if you do meet resistance, how do you how do you break through that so that people can actually start to get the wins and see it as a see it as a benefit?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, those are great questions. And this is uh really why it's really important to bring qualified experts in group psychology, not just facilitators. So I think a lot of people think they know how to lead a group because they can, you know, keep a conversation going. But when you bring people who have expertise in group dynamics, um, it's a different ball game because they know what to lean into, they know how to bridge people, they know how to match the stage of the group and the vibe in the room with the words, like how hard do you push and when do you back off? How do you ask people for permission? When do you not? Like these types of nuances are very, very important. And if you create a vulnerable situation where um like you ask someone a question and then it gets hot and you don't manage it properly on the the group, the facilitator side, it can rupture a group. So for example, we've worked with um, you know, we've we've consulted with some bigger organizations who use um who they're doing training for senior leadership, uh senior leadership in the in the military. And they were uh realizing that they weren't having facilitators leading groups, but uh, but like trauma in things would come up. And so if you're not equipped to think about how to manage like what that's going to do to the group or the individual if it's not managed properly, and like how do you sort of validate someone's experience, but also say, like, today we're talking on, you know, communication, not um not trauma or something, but like you have to know how to handle it in a way that makes people feel seen and heard, and also keep the conversation um uh on track. But I think the way we've managed this is it's very similar to when someone comes to therapy for the first time and they've never come to therapy and they sit down and they're like, uh, what do I do? Do you ask me questions or do I, you know, just start talking? You have to let them know like how this works, what how this information is used, what are the rules. We have a set of norms we put up at the very beginning, kind of like how to do group. You know, we give people complete permission. There's no expectation to share or not share. You're here as a group member to show up in any way that feels comfortable. Um, when you kind of build a trust, a rapport on the front end, and people realize you're not going to push them to do anything they don't want to do. That paradoxically allows them to open up much more readily. And so we've seen success having people like pretty quickly share things that they've never shared before that aren't like super personal. They're dynamics in the room that everybody sees, but for the first time, they're kind of like giving words to it. And then people feel once you have that type of experience, you realize like the group's not going to fall apart, the leader can tolerate this, and we're here to actually, with the shared goal of deepening connection and having the best group we can be. And once you can get through that cycle, it becomes um like self-fulfilling. You know, but you just have to get people, people have to learn how to do this a little bit at first. And you have to give them permission to do it in a way that feels comfortable for them.
SPEAKER_02So we spoke about the remote work environment and what what happens when we've when we've shifted into kind of like a Zoom-centric world. I think one of the other things that we're seeing quite a lot of is new and different tensions that arise when you have hybrid teams. So in other words, where you've got some folks that are in the office on a uh on a regular basis, let's say it's a team of five or a team of ten or whatever, and let's say that you got 40%, 50%, 60% of the people that are in the office together, um, and then you've got the other members of that same team that are either predominantly or completely remote. Um, I'd be curious as to what kind of uh team dynamics can emerge. Um, we've seen a we've seen a few ourselves. I'm just curious as to what you what you see when you're in that hybrid mode and you're kind of trying to manage both.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so within groups, there's often subgroupings, which are normal, right? It can be like the the guys and the ladies or the remote people and then the um people in the office. And having subgroupings within groups is very normal. Again, we're hardwired for belonging and connection, so we move towards people who are like us. That's a normal part of groups. The part that gets problematic is when you don't actually name the subgroupings, and then you also uh don't talk about like how this is either getting in the way of achieving our shared goal or not, right? Like some people might have strong feelings about this, other people might might not, but you have to have conversation around the impact. There's not one right one right way to do this. But what has to be done is having an honest conversation, being very, very clear about what the purpose of the group or the team is. What are we here for? Literally, as like a collective team, but also why are we here today? And then is the way our group functioning with these subgroupings best supporting the shared goals of this group, or is this getting in the way? And if it's getting in the way, how do we want this to change? So, what we're doing is helping people think constructively around noticing and naming their purpose, really articulating it, giving them skills to have these types of conversation, like what do I feel like when I don't feel connected to the remote group? Like, how is that impacting how we're working together? Is that helping us accomplish our shared goal or not? And what do I really want? So it's like we're trying to take any like of the value or judgment out of it. We're just putting it on the table as variables with the goal of working as best we can to accomplish our shared goal. And so it's it's not as like emotional as like you might imagine it. It's not like people are sort of like crying and all dramatic. It's it's more like I'm just speaking honestly about what's getting in the way of our team working well together, and this is what I really want. And I work best when you know I have more regular interaction with you, like those types of things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there is a this a fascinating kind of like subdimension to what you were talking about there, and I was connecting it to some of the feedback that we get uh from teams. A very common pattern that we see is what you just mentioned, whereby you've got like the remote subgroup and then you've got the in-office subgroup. But then what we tend to see is more often than not, over a period of time, what happens is that um the because the default state of the remote subgroup is you could almost say invisible, and the default state of the in office group is more visible, and because there is a reduced amount of communication between those those two subgroups in the way in which you describe, a retirement can create a situation where you've got the folks in the office that that believe that they do all the work, and that the folks who are out of the office are basically just sitting there, you know, doing Facebook or Amazon or whatever it is that people do these days instead of work. And it creates this tension between these two uh groups. And the only way in which we've seen that can really um resolve that is increased uh visibility throughout the uh throughout the group so that people actually do have an understanding that no, actually there is more of a an equal division of labor, everybody's pulling their weight, everybody's doing what they should do, but but doing something at the group level to increase the level of trust between those two subgroups in the uh in the way in which you describe. And I think it's fascinating because what you're as you say, it's not it's not rocket science really, but it is just it's it's identifying that those dynamics exist, and then it's kind of figuring out how to whatever way is needed in order to be able to resolve those those dynamics and open communication end up uh being a hugely important piece of it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that that's exactly what I was thinking as you're speaking, is really it's a thing about communication, right? Because when we're disconnected and out of communication, we make assumptions that are often wrong, right? So how can we actually bring people to the table? And but there's also this perceived, also this like misnomer of like perceived justice or equity. Like we have to, you know, me showing up from nine to five um is me fulfilling my obligation as an employee. And just because you're not here means you're not fulfilling, but like that's not that's a cognitive distortion. So it's like we have to kind of redefine that for a group and help them be like, but so let's talk about how are we going to actually measure engagement and give other things to focus on that aren't ours clocked, you know. But like these are the types of conversations that we have to have in the group. So we're kind of playing by the same set of rules, so to speak, and not keeping score. And then by default, having these conversations builds connection and empathy and trust and realizing we're actually much more alike than we are different, but we have to move towards communication to help us get there.
SPEAKER_02So is that kind of the is that kind of the superpower, as it were, that that really high-functioning teams have if they are distributed in the way that we're talking about? I'm just curious if you've you've seen examples of teams that are distributed in nature, that have this kind of remote element and uh and maybe in an office element as well, but but that they would self-describe and others would describe them as really high-functioning teams. Is it all centered around communication or um or are there other secrets that these uh that these high functioning teams have?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, there there's actually it's is communication is one piece of this. Group dynamics are very multifaceted and by definition dynamic, but there's multiple pieces. So the areas that we really focus on at groups that we find to be super important are communication is one of them. Um, uh uh communication composition. So, kind of as we were talking at the beginning, each group's different and shaped by the individuals that come together. So, understanding my preferences, how I like to communicate, how I like to listen, how when I feel seen and heard, you know, what what like all the personal stuff, what my skill set is that can play well in the group, having conversations around that type of stuff is really important. Um, culture is about like safety and belonging. So, can I bring all parts of myself here or a lot of parts of myself? And people will feel more engaged and connected to each other when they feel like they're they're safe and they belong. Um, and the cohesion is connection, which is really like, are we working towards a shared goal? So having a clear purpose that's well articulated and regularly visited and talked about, like, are we accomplishing this? Um, is is really important too. But there's lots of things. And like communication is really multifaceted within itself. You know, there's many different types of communication. So when are we using what type of communication? When? You know, how do we think about nonverbal communication like over the computer? Um, how do we listen? You know, what is that signal? So all these things are kind of like tied together, but there's sort of some key concepts that are very important to um to kind of tune into.
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SPEAKER_02So how does this interface with um diversity and inclusion? I'm really curious as to when you think about it from the perspective of most organizations, they at this point understand the strong business benefits to their organization of having a diverse work uh workforce and having in particular, you'll see this in tech companies where they they they want and they need and they recognize the business benefit of having a workforce that reflects the user community that that uses their uses their products. They want as much diversity in their workforce as they can get. Um and so but you also made some comments earlier on about how um we tend to kind of uh collect together with with you know with folks that are that are like-minded. And it's and obviously when you do that, it's the the communication is a lot easier and the ability to be able to collaborate can be easier and so on. So particularly in smaller groups, how do those two things play with each other? Um, how do you go about maintaining that you've got as much diversity as you can in your workforce, but at the same time make it easy for these collaborations inside groups to work really well?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I love that. So there's a lot of focus on DEIB just in general in organizations. And I think companies make a push to bring speakers in and do things to like train workshops or to have workshops to like teach people about things like implicit bias or unconscious bias, but it kind of ends there, right? They're like understanding um or creating a culture of DEIB falls under the greater umbrella of safety and belonging. So if you think about as human beings, we're hardwired for safety and belonging, every time I show up into a room, whether it's a virtual room or a real room, or pull into the gas station or walk in a store, I'm subconsciously, consciously um assessing am I safe? Do I belong? Because if I'm not safe and I don't belong, I'm at risk and it threatens my survival. And so we are always making these assessments. And so people think of like bias as like, not to say it's not a bad thing, but it's we're hardwired for bias because it expedites the way we're thinking. So, you know, for example, I put people into buckets based on prior experience and also cultural messaging that may or may not be right. But I do that because I don't have to then interpret every single situation that I'm in. It just expedites the way I'm thinking, and our brain is always trying to maximize efficiency. So that's why we just have to accept that bias is a thing that we all do, and then we have to notice when it shows up for ourselves here. So within groups, I, you know, this is I could like spin off into a whole thing here, but within groups, um, I think when we move towards honest conversations and bringing people together with intentional and regular communication, we start to realize that the way that I see you or you see me, we might assume that we're similar in certain ways based on the way we look or our interest or something. But once we spend more time, we'll realize there's so much so much deeper points of interaction where there's many more uh ways of connection that just like we don't have unless we're together or we don't see unless we're together. So I think that's a long-winded way to say DEI sort of follows falls under safety and belonging. Um, but safety and belonging is just something that we have to tend to in general as cultures and teams across the board, like aside from just DEI type initiatives.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, again, another really fascinating topic. And maybe we can have a future pub we can talk about this in a little bit more detail. I know from my perspective, one of the things that I've um that I've thought about a great deal is the impact that things like social media have on our ability to be able to even process um views and mindsets that are differ uh that are different to our own. Um and um if you if you think about the way in which society used to exist uh, you know, before any of this technology was around, you'd be in a physical space. It might be the village or the town that you lived in where there were people in that that space that that you didn't agree with, but you had to kind of get along with because they need they lived near to you. And in our virtual community, um, these days we can switch off anything that we uh that doesn't meet with our own worldview. We can congregate around just a group of people that are very like-minded than us, and we and as you pointed out earlier, we have a natural tendency to do that. So now technology really makes it easy for us to be able to shut out everything that is different from us and hold in everything that is uh that is like ourselves, and then that can create a tension when uh when you're actually in a situation where you do have to be able to deal with other people's um diverse um viewpoints that are different to yours, and you don't necessarily have the skills in the same way that you did previously. So anyway, that's my soapbox on all this, but I think it's a I think it's a very, very interesting topic area in its own right.
SPEAKER_01No, I mean, again, we could have a whole conversation around this part of it, but what ends up happening is you know, that the within group dynamics, that's a point of vulnerability. Eventually you're gonna do something that bothers me, or I'm gonna do something that bothers you. And the lead leader in the team needs to bring people together and create an environment where we can talk about difficult things, but we need to do in a way that's actually safe for people, not just putting people in a room to have these difficult conversations. And so part of what we teach within the communication kind of uh uh pillar that we do is about dealing with handling difficult conversations. And another study came out recently by HBR, Herford Business Review, that shared um, you know, employees want more feedback and leaders are not giving it to them because they don't know how to deliver difficult information, which is creating more disconnect and it's not helping the company and the team grow. So we're avoiding this stuff because we don't know how to do it and because we're well intentioned caring people who don't actually want to hurt people. But to have a strong Group, you have to be able to tolerate the discomfort. You have to be taught the skills, and the leader has to teach the group, it's okay, this is how we handle it, and we're gonna survive it. But like people move away from it to your point, which then creates more disconnect. People just turn off their computer, feel frustrated, and then it lingers, and then eventually we'll just like rupture or someone just goes away because they don't want to deal anymore.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Wow, truly fascinating. Um, and that actually leads me, I think, to probably the last question that I have for you today, which is centered around the individual dynamic versus the team dynamic. So this is again something that we've observed as we're working with people that are in hybrid scenarios or in remote work scenarios, which is that in some cases the the mix between work that you're doing solo, as it were, and what you were doing in uh in collaborative settings has shifted. Um and people are doing more solo type work and then they're coming together for either ad hoc Zoom meetings or scheduled Zoom meetings or something like that, and that's when they're uh that's when they're doing something in a more collaborative fashion. I'm curious that you know, as you work in this group setting, but you have a background in the in in the individual's uh setting as well, do you see situations where an individual's need to be individually effective or productive is interfering with the team dynamic? In other words, they're sort of like optimizing locally, but they're not optimizing globally. And when you see situations like that, um beyond the the Danish example that you alluded to before, whereby it's it's you're you're sort of framing it around, okay, for this period of time it's gonna be we versus me. Are there other situations or recommendations that you have when you see this idea of an individual who really is well-intentioned and just trying to be as personally productive as they can be, but that that's having um an impact on the team dynamic? Have you seen ways in which that can be resolved?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I think it's about coming together to have these honest conversations. So this is when clarity of purpose, so when there's difficult conversations to be had, almost always there's a shared purpose or a shared goal. And so, like the job of the leader, or this is what we do with groups, is go in and really like peel back what is the shared goal here? Because then we can just take the judgment and the value out of like good or bad. It's this, these are just different behaviors. So is this working to further us towards our shared goal or is this getting in the way? And then how can we have an honest conversation about what you need and what the group needs? And all of us come to groups with our own individual needs. Some of us are more um, I was just talking about this in class today, but we all of us have our own individual needs, and we all have a need for group and safety and belonging too, but there's just a different ratio depending on who you are and really experiences and how you're wired. But the more we can actually understand about ourselves, and this is why we work with like to do coaching with people too, help people understand this part of themselves, and then how the group is either um helping them kind of grow and uh into the group, or if it's if if their kind of needs are not in alignment with the group, how do we reconcile that? So again, we try to like focus on the shared goal, strip the value and the judgment, have open conversation and then be very clear about the shared goal of the group. And then um, you know, is this working or is it not working? And then how do we get closer to to achieving what we want to achieve? Um, and then sometimes, I mean, this can be like the rough reality, but sometimes people are not matched with the group or the group goals. And that's okay. You know, people feel sometimes bad about that, like, and then they can start kind of scapegoating the person. But again, if you strip it of the value and the judgment and you can look at it objectively alongside the person, not like in isolation, the employees sort of off in the corner, come together. What do you want here? How is this group supporting you? How is it not? What is our shared goal? How committed are you to the shared goal? How committed are you to this team? If the answer is no, no, no, no, no, then this might not be the best match. So, me as a leader, let me think through like when do you find your feel most purposeful or most connected or most energized? Let me work with you to think about other ways that like a work environment would support that. You know, and maybe I know somebody or like let's think constructively together about what it might look like to actually be in a different work group. And so not to be like embarrassed about that. We're not all meant to be in all groups at all times together. And that's okay. But it also doesn't have to be like the bad apple either, you know? It's just honest, it's like a match between almost like in parenting, we talk about parent-child temperament and match. Sometimes like people aren't matched with the group all that well. Oh well, try again. How can we find a group that's like a little bit better matched?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, you've given me a ton to think about there, Bobby. I really, really appreciate it. Um, and I'm sure our audience for the same thing. So we'll obviously put uh a link to uh to your organization uh in the in the show notes of the podcast. Um, but in the meantime, I just want to say thank you so much. Um, and uh best of luck with everything that you have going forward with the with this and with your teaching. Um, and uh really, really looking forward to to following along with your journey. Thanks a lot, Bubby.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Paul. This is wonderful, and thanks for all the work you're doing at Billion Minds too. It's been so uh great to just have a conversation and look forward to more.
SPEAKER_00The Way Too Busy podcast was presented and produced by me, Matt Neal, and was brought to you by Billion Minds. If you want to get in touch with us, tweet us at Rising Billion or email us at WayTooBusy at BillionMinds.com. Billion Minds, creating practical tools for our way too busy lives. If you're enjoying the Way Too Busy podcast, please consider leaving us a rating and review on iTunes so that others can find us as well. Thanks.
